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Winter Project & How TO 2012 Ninja 650 (ER-6N) 636 Front End swap.

43K views 67 replies 15 participants last post by  Bradmeister  
WOW! That's ingenious! I think you may of hit a stage of Nirvana! Time to get that bad boy over to Germany and really road test that fine engineering you:ve mastered!
 
Updated pic with the new Penske shock, added 2 inches of ride height over stock, compliments the ZX6R front end very well. Much more compliant, no more getting bounced out of the seat.
VERSYS RIDER,

I just finished reading this post from you..........

Overall, she looks wicked....... Congrats!

Tell me please, Why do I see the Pre-load on your new Penske Cranked up so much? It looks like in the picture, your up to half the threads or about 40mm or so? I see you decided to raise the rear 2" to accommodate the front, Do you know where your new CG or Center of Gravity is now established?

Can you tell us why this is? Can't you just raise the forks to copy original rake and wheelbase? If you're a heavy dude, I can respect you're privacy.

Were you able to achieve your front and rear sag? Your Static and rider Sag?

At two inches higher, I would have to believe the geometry changed, did you compensate with more static sag and what about your "Squat" at the rear wheel?

Any gearing calculations to see about squatting and kick-up now that you have changed asymmetry of the powertrain from factory? The factory delivered the Bike in a nose up position when we purchased......... based on front and rear factory spring rates. Looking at the Rear Pre=load on that shock, you have the Tail up full and much much more than 4-9mm's of Pre-load on that spring.

Lastly, Some of the torque we produce (When we twist the Throttle, especially out of a turn) goes into wanting to "Flip" our motorcycles over!

This shifts more weight (or force) to the rear of the vehicle. On our motorcycles, this compresses the rear springs and extends the front springs as they each seek a new equilibrium position for the new loads. This is called Squat.

When were underpowered, the Drivetrain configuration, wheel and suspension components as the rear spring expands or extends is called Anti-Squat.

It looks as though you are in a full "Anti-Squat" mode to me my friend. Be safe. Be careful. and exercise caution.


Very Curiously interested,

Cheers
 
I'm starting to collect parts! I got a upper/lower triple from a z1000, a 636 wheel, and 06 636 forks. I just need brakes, a fender and some free time now. After selling my stock parts, out of pocket expense will be very manageable. The springs will be much more appropriate also (BRAD! :D). .90kg/mm vs 1.2 kg/mm. Calculators tell me I need between a .90 and .95.
Go DJ, GO!!!!!

Sounds about right.....ummm 6-4 and 200lbs? Regardless..........your going strait to Start, collect 200 dollars and advance to one of 4 places.......

1. Race Tech at $114 or
2. Traxxon at $120 and they have them for our tubes in .05 kg/mm increments
3. Promoto dual rate if your want plush and no track at $120
4. EPM single with oil at $135

(not sure about the 636 tubes for any of these offerings.......... still 41mm's?

I cant wait to see it! Keep the CG, squat, and Sag in mind! Let the Suspension Design Begin DJrussell!!!! Woot Woot!

Cheers
 
DJ,

Excellent, Could you send me a parts explosion of the 636 tubes? So you jumped up to 44mm inverted tubes? They may have the drains in them, but I'm not sure.

Fork oil change is easy enough and popping the tubes apart will allow for the drainage if these are cartridge style tubes. You do have a nifty Seal Drive tool for re-assembly? Metal seems to be a bit easier than the hard plastic. I usually grovel around a local shop to borrow theirs.

Oh and I would definitely stay away from cheap for Seals like MSR....... the red ones! Ugggg!

Cheers!
 
Here's the diagram and parts list. They're 41mm Showa USD forks.

Front Fork

I don't have any of the needed tools yet. I can probably make some for cheap though. Thanks for the tip on MSR seals. Do you have a preferred brand? OEM?
DJ,

Excellent,

I see the Pre-load and Damp on Top, but no rebound on the lower? Pinch bolts, cylinder bolt and drain....... They're cool though with the cartridge!

Have you had a chance to measure yet from Center Axle to Top Triple Clamp and any disparity in length from OE to the 636's?

The tools are easily fabricated with the exception of the Seal Drivers..........We prefer the metals over the plastics since it transfers more energy when installing them! Oil Height; we use a turkey baster and a hangar with a hook to measure height!

Yes, the MSR's Seem to wear faster and leak, and when they go, they really leak a lot! Ummmm, we were with Moose for a while but my kid just switched to something new that our Local Shop swears by........I'll see him tonight and ask him what the new latest and greatest Fork Seals may be.

I just did a little mod myself with the Fork Tubes....... Pre Load on the Fly with Intiminators.......started trials yesterday, so far so good!
I'll see if I can get a Thread up today.

Cheers
 
Actually it looks like separating the tubes is not necessary. All the oil gets drained out of the top. I'm going to leave the seals alone unless they're leaking.
DJ,

OK, Talked to my son, and he said SKF all the way for the aftermarket seals! All balls and MSR are out! We were using the moose, the year before last, but switched back to OEM, and now the SKF's!

Great to hear about the rebound on the bottom as opposed to the plug! Although oil changes are so easy with the drain Plugs!


Have you determined what Race Sag you wish to achieve? What will you do about the rear shock?

Bradmeisters Advise; if you have the tubes uninstalled now, change the seals and wipers. You cant see the inside of the seals until you pull them apart! The wipers mean nothing. I suggest this be done prior to the install; the last thing you want to do is install them and have them leak out and onto your brakes a day after you start riding your new suspension design! Woot Woot!


If you choose not to change the seals and wipers, change the oil out and start with a minimum amount to prevent bottoming, as you can always increase for more dampening. I'd probably start with 5 wt. @ 120 mm's (based on your weight, under 200 lbs. and you have the cartridge) I'm running 7.5 but may switch to 5 as well......... I'm 205 lbs. ATGATT.

Finally, if the tubes stick out, check your clearances to the Bars! I installed the intiminators and the cap pre-loads and just cleared (2.5mm's) with the tubes moved down evenly to the top of the triple clamp!


Cheers!
 
Thanks for the tips, Brad. First I've got to get them installed, then I'll really tackle the adjustment.

OEM oil is 5W at 109mm from the top. This is set for a 150 lb rider. So I would want more oil to prevent bottoming?

Those SKF seals are $$$ but look to be well regarded. OEMs are not too expensive. Apparently Bikemaster are the same as OEM but a little cheaper so I'll probably go that route.
Suspension Master to be, DJ,

As far as the Oil, nope don't add more yet, and that sounds good to me. As the rule of thumb is to start with minimum oil and add to your liking! More Oil equals more dampening so, follow the 5 weight and Height for now. The Correct Springs will help prevent you from bottom out, and enough oil.............ummmm do you have OIL LOCKS on these Forks? I wouldn't think so, but it's proper to ask as some will and to prevent bottom out!! Let me know. Remember, it's the last 1/4 or 1/5 of travel that the Oil comes into real action.

OK a little quiz for you from the soon to be published SUSPENSION 101 part 3............How many times per second do our fork tubes move when we hit a 1" right angle bump at 60MPH? Every street suspension tuner knows this or has a similar height or MPH rule.

Yes the SKF's are expensive, but how many times (in the course of ownership) do you want to do a Seal/Wiper replacement Job? Go with the OEM's (if not the SKF's) as I can't comment on BIKEMASTERS.

Cheers
 
I ride SuperMoto's too so I'm used to messed up geometry.

The ride height adjustment is cranked up (1 1/2 inches over stock), not the pre-load, that was left fairly close to the delivered setting. I think I took out around two turns of pre-load to get my static sag of 30mm. This was after taking all stock measurements before the old suspension was taken off (front and rear). I prefer the extra seat height, I took my time getting up to speed with the new geometry (after setting sag, 170lbs in leathers). After increasing compression slightly and de-creasing rebound a couple clicks from my previous settings, (stock ride height) in the forks to compensate for the front end feeling like it wanted to "wash out" . All is good now and I have confidence in the front end, after increasing the rear ride height.
Versysrider,

OK. Supermoto rider, very cool....... with a GS? That's past my comprehension, but OK!

So, if you did not adjust "ride height" via Pre-loads front and rear, how did you do that exactly? So, your telling us the Chassis in the front and rear is raised exactly 1-1/2 inches higher than stock? But then you have a race sag of 30mm's so were back down over an inch or was that really your Static Sag that's at 30mm's and not your race Sag............. Should I ask what your race sag is at?

You may want to head over to Tony Foale Race Geometry Calculator.......... I believe this may be usefull for you!

Cheers.
 
I don't think there are oil locks but I don't really know what those are.

I have no idea about the 1" right angle bump. How many times per second or how many miles per second?

Good point about the seals. I'll check with the distributor. So far it looks like they only have oil seals and not the dust wipers. Price of the seals is not awful actually, $35. They want $15 shipping though!
DJ,

The oil lock piece sits at the bottom of the fork or on the damper rod and alters the compression damping when the fork reaches the last 10 mm of travel or so. A volume of oil is captured by the piece so that you don't bottom out the tubes.

Since I remembered the tube parts exploded, I remembered you have a "rod" which could incorporate this device........but I don't think you have one, but thought it appropriate to ask : )

OK, on the right angle bump........ more in SUS101pt3 on that but just for a gee wiz factor: The fork tubes must move 250 times per second if we hit a 1" right angle bump at 60 MPH! That's freaky huh? There's a graph that actually has it from 1/8' to 6" somewhere in my tool box from days long gone now. I just use the 1"@60mph for calculating wave shock and work!

The Shipping price really gets my goat! Come on, 15bucks!? That's retarded! You need the Seals and The Wipers at the same time! So, find someone else who can get these to you without raping you for the shipping! Please!

Cheers
 
Beyond your comprehension?

View attachment 67436
Versysrider,

OMG, that's beyond Sick! It's ummmm that's, uhhhh one of those things!!! WICKED, Something Wicked Comes this way??? Are you ****ting me man!!! Your Racing that Monster in SUPERMOTO???? Do they have a Pro-Class for that size now? Man, I'm getting OLD:righton:

....and Yes, that's beyond my comprehension to tune...... No idea how to tune that off road/ dual pupose machine to perform for a GP Track.

BEEMERS are really trying to break into the Super Moto Scene/Circuit???? News to me man!

Cheers.