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Running Zeros

This is a discussion on Running Zeros within the Mean Streak Performance Upgrades forums, part of the Kawasaki Mean Streak category; Originally Posted by Ponkster45 I didn't realise this was going to turn into a ***** Fest ! I do know about the Accelerator Pump function ...

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  1. #16
    Supreme Being madperson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponkster45 View Post
    I didn't realise this was going to turn into a ***** Fest !

    I do know about the Accelerator Pump function - I was running it when I had the PC III connected.

    I also understand as with most bikes that one mode ( either pipes or air filter) doesn't need any fuel management - so I was most interested to hear from people running stock fuelling with aftermarket pipes and filters. I am running a pancake "spectra" filter (like a K+N) attached to the RH side into the throttle body and my pipes ate cut down Vance and Hinnes Long shots.

    I think I will be keeping the PCIII on ( putting it back on that is !!!) and turning down the fuel down a bit across the range - not exactly scientific I know - feel free to **** your pants about that but remember if your known to be a serial knob on this forum I probably wont be able to see your comments so save your bile for someone who gives a flying **** !
    To all the others who posted helpful comments - thanks , still seems a bit of debate on if we need a fuel controller but I guess slightly rich is a lot safer than running lean and hot on long runs.
    Ponkster, I am running a spike air filter and Hard Krome exhaust. I'm not having any problems with running too lean.
    Madperson (AKA Teddy Bear)
    2008 Mean Streak SE Memphis Shades Shield, MM angled risers, Leatherlyke Bags, Arlen Ness Rad 3 mirrors (black), Mapam forwards (black) with swing wing pegs, ISO flame grips with throttle boss, Hard Krome exhaust w/tips, Mustang Seat, PCIII, Spike Intake, luggage rack. 2 configurations when I'm done one as a solo, the other as a tourer.

  2. #17
    Up-And Comer Ponkster45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madperson View Post
    Ponkster, I am running a spike air filter and Hard Krome exhaust. I'm not having any problems with running too lean.
    Thanks for the reply - I see in your sig you have a PCIII - do you run it at zero map ? Do you use the accelerator pump function? How long have you been running the bike this way ?

  3. #18
    Supreme Being madperson's Avatar
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    As per my last post, zero map about 4 years and I am running the accelerator pump function. That seems to give it more immediate umph when I grab a handful of throttle. The only reason the PCIII is still on the bike is I'm to lazy to take it off. I'll probably remove it altogether the next time I have to take the tank off for something else.
    Madperson (AKA Teddy Bear)
    2008 Mean Streak SE Memphis Shades Shield, MM angled risers, Leatherlyke Bags, Arlen Ness Rad 3 mirrors (black), Mapam forwards (black) with swing wing pegs, ISO flame grips with throttle boss, Hard Krome exhaust w/tips, Mustang Seat, PCIII, Spike Intake, luggage rack. 2 configurations when I'm done one as a solo, the other as a tourer.

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  5. #19
    Up-And Comer bolt-on-bandito's Avatar
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    Hey guys, old post but i thought i'd throw my $.02 in.

    I do not have much experience with bikes in regard to A/F ratios and how the pipes and intake effect things, but i have a wealth of knowledge in this subject when it comes to V8's. Using OEM carb, Edelbrocks, and all manner of Holley/Quick-fuel/Demon carbs I have been able to adjust air-fuel ratios to exact specifications, using vacuum advance, timing, jets, air bleeds, and a few other tricks. All of this verified by real time driving conditions, data-logged through a wide band 02 sensor.

    long story short, acceptable A/F ratios are actually pretty generous, and an engine will run forever a little rich, but pre-detonate/destroy pistons running lean. Basically, err on the side of rich when in doubt. Considering the Mean streaks are a closed loop system, you can just trick the input air temp sensor with a resistor to make it think the air is colder, and it needs to add more fuel. if the bikes had 02 sensors, then it would be totally different.

    I have grinded out hours of time fine tuning A/F curves to get ever bit of power of engines, or increase MPG. It's a lot of work, and the results are good, but barely noticeable. IMO on these bikes, do the pipes and filter then add a 750 or 1,000 ohm resistor and call it good. Plenty of guys on here with that set up, and no adverse effects.

  6. #20
    Rising Star skeptic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt-on-bandito View Post
    Considering the Mean streaks are a closed loop system, you can just trick the input air temp sensor with a resistor to make it think the air is colder, and it needs to add more fuel. if the bikes had 02 sensors, then it would be totally different.
    Yes, if the bikes had 02 sensors it could be totally different, like potentially closed loop instead of the open loop system our Mean Streaks have. Unfortunately our ECUs are primitive, open loop, and smart as a rock.

    Adding resistance to trick the air temp sensor we've been doing forever. It fell from favor when we got PCII/PCIIIs and could richen and lean selectively instead of just adding fuel everywhere so your already too rich full throttle A/F ratios are even richer when you add a resistor.

    The other problem adding a resistor is it's not a consistent "correction" over varied air temps, You need temp compensated resistance like "booster plugs" supply to get consistency.

    The reason there's no good answer to the "do I need a PCIII (or similar)?" question is because the TPS settings our bikes were delivered with vary widely. It's why some bikes would run nicely on regular while others would detonate even on premium. With the common "big three" some bikes run ok with no mapping changes, some don't, many owners wouldn't know the difference anyway.
    Last edited by skeptic; 04-18-17 at 01:16 PM.

  7. #21
    Supreme Being twowheeladdict's Avatar
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    Have you all noticed how much knowledge skeptic purports to have about the mean streak, yet all his posts are just to cut down someone else's post, instead of offering helpful advise to the person asking the question?

    Way to go skeptic.
    HilbillyKat likes this.
    Skill is what keeps you on two wheels.

    Situational awareness combined with skill is what keeps you out of harm's way.

    ATGATT combined with Situational Awareness and Skill means you might live to ride another day when that deer runs into your bike or that drunk blows through that stop sign.

  8. #22
    Rising Star skeptic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheeladdict View Post
    Have you all noticed how much knowledge skeptic purports to have about the mean streak, yet all his posts are just to cut down someone else's post, instead of offering helpful advise to the person asking the question?

    Way to go skeptic.
    Interesting considering that your post offers no "helpful advise to the person asking the question" and was clearly only posted to "cut down someone else's post".

    Sounds like more hate and discontent being stirred up by a hypocrite troll that doesn't own a Mean Streak. Way to go...

  9. #23
    Supreme Being madperson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheeladdict View Post
    Have you all noticed how much knowledge skeptic purports to have about the mean streak, yet all his posts are just to cut down someone else's post, instead of offering helpful advise to the person asking the question?

    Way to go skeptic.
    Yep another troll the Mods need to get rid of in my humble opinion.
    HilbillyKat and hagger like this.
    Madperson (AKA Teddy Bear)
    2008 Mean Streak SE Memphis Shades Shield, MM angled risers, Leatherlyke Bags, Arlen Ness Rad 3 mirrors (black), Mapam forwards (black) with swing wing pegs, ISO flame grips with throttle boss, Hard Krome exhaust w/tips, Mustang Seat, PCIII, Spike Intake, luggage rack. 2 configurations when I'm done one as a solo, the other as a tourer.

  10. #24
    Supreme Being twowheeladdict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Interesting considering that your post offers no "helpful advise to the person asking the question" and was clearly only posted to "cut down someone else's post".

    Sounds like more hate and discontent being stirred up by a hypocrite troll that doesn't own a Mean Streak. Way to go...
    Correction. No longer owns a mean streak. Still waiting for you to share your vast knowledge by answering questions instead of finding fault with people's posts. Can't bring yourself to actually be helpful?
    HilbillyKat likes this.
    Skill is what keeps you on two wheels.

    Situational awareness combined with skill is what keeps you out of harm's way.

    ATGATT combined with Situational Awareness and Skill means you might live to ride another day when that deer runs into your bike or that drunk blows through that stop sign.

  11. #25
    Up-And Comer Ponkster45's Avatar
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    Well I put the PC111 back on - as bolt on said in his post "an engine will run forever a little rich, but pre-detonate/destroy pistons running lean"

    I gave the throttle body a clean and the air cleaner was cleaned and re oiled and its pulling like a train.

    Thanks for all your help and input , sorry we couldn't discuss this without the mud slinging - I for one will be putting the past behind me, unblocking people who were ignored in the past and seeing if we can get on without having a "pop" at each other.

    We are all bikers (or people that like motorcycles) at the end of the day - we are not going to agree all the time but lets see if we can try to take a breath before we hit the post button.
    bolt-on-bandito and B46 like this.

  12. #26
    Up-And Comer bolt-on-bandito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Yes, if the bikes had 02 sensors it could be totally different, like potentially closed loop instead of the open loop system our Mean Streaks have. Unfortunately our ECUs are primitive, open loop, and smart as a rock.

    Adding resistance to trick the air temp sensor we've been doing forever. It fell from favor when we got PCII/PCIIIs and could richen and lean selectively instead of just adding fuel everywhere so your already too rich full throttle A/F ratios are even richer when you add a resistor.

    The other problem adding a resistor is it's not a consistent "correction" over varied air temps, You need temp compensated resistance like "booster plugs" supply to get consistency.

    The reason there's no good answer to the "do I need a PCIII (or similar)?" question is because the TPS settings our bikes were delivered with vary widely. It's why some bikes would run nicely on regular while others would detonate even on premium. With the common "big three" some bikes run ok with no mapping changes, some don't, many owners wouldn't know the difference anyway.

    Hmmm, maybe i have been using open loop and closed loop in the opposite meaning. I thought open loop meant there was an 02 sensor and and intake air sensor (or throttle position sensor) and that the two sensors were always trying to balance each other out.....as if the intake sensor shows X amount of air/temp, then the exhaust sensor would determine that enrichment/redudction of fuel.... i thought closed loop meant only 1 sensor was doing the adjustment, with no feedback from any other sensor. That's the terminology with cars. But anyway, I think the points remain the same. I for one picked up my bike last summer for $2K, so there is no way i am going to put a $300-400 fuel mapping mod on my bike. It idles, runs, and has great WOT characteristics.

    I guess overall i am really happy with how the bike performs, and am no longer the "every last HP possible" kinda guy. I can see how the EFI is primitive, but remember, the factory isn't out to produce razor's edge perfromance. they want reliable, long lasting, solid power. I am good with primitive....i still like carburetors, despite being born in '81!

  13. #27
    Rising Star skeptic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt-on-bandito View Post
    I am good with primitive....i still like carburetors, despite being born in '81!
    I'm older and I also still like carbs. I'd prefer a carb over the (primitive) EFI our Mean Streaks have. Even with a PCIII it's limitations are frustrating. On the other hand, my BMW has a very smart Bosch BMSK (ECU) that's been reflashed. It runs better than any carb setup could.

    I have the old serial port PCIII on my Mean Streak. I've been tempted to get the newer USB version that has the accelerator pump function. It could improve "tip in" with lean cruise mixtures but as you've found, it runs "good enough" so I haven't.

  14. #28
    Supreme Being carryall's Avatar
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    Great post Skeptic. I like carbs for the simple fact they are easy to diagnose air/fuel problems but, for performance and general reliability, F.I. has it's benefits for sure.
    Blue ZR7 with...color matched swing arm, heel plates, bar end mirrors, passenger pegs, F&R blinkers with smoked lens, oil cooler with mesh, carbon fibered side covers with mesh, custom made chin fairing, along with a tail trim, LED underbody lighting, Yoshimura RS3 muffler, Corbin seat, F15 windshield, 17t front sprocket, oil temp gauge, rim tape, custom grips, front spring preload adjusters, different handlebars with risers, Ivans jet kit with air box mod and snorkel removal and AIS removal.

  15. #29
    Up-And Comer bolt-on-bandito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    I'm older and I also still like carbs. I'd prefer a carb over the (primitive) EFI our Mean Streaks have. Even with a PCIII it's limitations are frustrating. On the other hand, my BMW has a very smart Bosch BMSK (ECU) that's been reflashed. It runs better than any carb setup could.

    I have the old serial port PCIII on my Mean Streak. I've been tempted to get the newer USB version that has the accelerator pump function. It could improve "tip in" with lean cruise mixtures but as you've found, it runs "good enough" so I haven't.
    First gen, crappy OEM EFI lead me to convert my 1994 mustang to a carburetor. the '87-'93 "Fox body" mustangs had the same 5.0 engines and were (under-rated) at 225HP.....but were closer to 250. the next gen gained about 500lbs. a shallow hood line, which meant a very restrictive intake, and a bunch of emissions controls, and were rated at 215hp!!!

    Can you imagine the absolute crap storm if new Vette or Stang came out with LESS hp then the current model? That was the 90's

    Anyway, Ford switched to the 4.6, OHC modular motors, which are super expensive, and less durable, BUT have a far superior EFI system. I was faced with a custom stand alone EFI system, a custom tune, or adding a cam position sensor and other sensors, and trying to retrofit a factory EFI system. Instead i swapped the intake, ran fuel lines, a fuel press reg, and slapped a carb on it. Best decision i ever made! Long story short, the meanie EFI is kinda lame, and i am not impressed with the modules, so I plan to just leave it alone and enjoy driving.

    In my experience the major advantage of EFI is MPG and easier tuning abilities. Carbs are easy to tune ONCE you know what you are doing, but the learning curve is steep, and it's becoming a lost art. New efi tuners can be adjusted from your phone. I am not interested in spending $300 on a module to improve my MPG by +3.....that would take a lot of fill ups to offset.

    $.02

  16. #30
    Up-And Comer jarmoke's Avatar
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    Yep, different kind of opinions. Anyway, at least in Europe bikes are tuned up so that they will pass pollution tests. It is not tuned how engineers have planned the engine. My personal experiences are that PC does make a huge difference when tuned up in dyno by professional, and if I ever change my bike the new one will be tuned up in dyno for sure - as well as our car's TDI engine is tuned up in dyno (tuning without turbo in cars is not so efficient). I have noticed a huge difference both in cars and bikes, and I have allways told the dyno company that I'm not interested about max HP, but I'm interested of nice and steady torque curves... And every time they have succeed, I'm really happy about results with all bikes and cars which have been dynoed...

    Edit: When talking about cars, I'm talking about European models... I do not have any understandin of American cars

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