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Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) for Dummies.

This is a discussion on Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) for Dummies. within the Daily Ride forums, part of the General Forums category; Not sure if this is the correct place for this thread, moderators may locate it elsewhere. gg ever curious, knows very little about EFI, now ...

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  1. #1
    Maintenance Overlord graeme gould's Avatar
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    Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) for Dummies.

    Not sure if this is the correct place for this thread, moderators may locate it elsewhere.

    gg ever curious, knows very little about EFI, now that as Martin64 has often previously pointed out, cars are just about exclusively fueled by EFI. Motorcyles manufacturers are usually slow in adopting knew technology as is the case with EFI. We all know that EFI is becoming more popular with motorbikes, infact gg indicated via a previous thread that Honda has manufactured EFI for engines down to 50cc's.

    gg hopes to open a can of worms here, to induce forumers to post any knowlege they have regarding this subject.

    Any post on this subject is welcome.

    Aris of Athens has just bought an Honda Hornet 900 EFI provided the incentive to start this thread.
    Graeme Gould at Byron Bay the most Easterly part of Australia

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  3. #2
    Johnny Blue Lightnin'
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    I know a good bit about automotive electronic fuel injection systems and almost nothing about automotive mechanical fuel injection systems (except diesels) The systems in bikes are very basic from what I've seen. They have
    interruptors for crankshaft and camshaft signals, a fuel pump, fuel injectors, a coolant temp sensor, a barometric pressure sensor that may also be the manifold pressure (or vacuum) sensor, throttle position sensor, ambient air or intake temp sensor, and a microprocessor. There may be an additional ignition module or it could be incorporated into the main microprocessor. Some may even have an O2 sensor for a feedback loop.
    Jon

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  4. #3
    Supreme Being Bronto's Avatar
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    I may be going out on a limb saying Motorcycle FI system uses throttle body with the fuel injector mounted to it. Haven't heard or seen Fuel injectors mounted in the cylinder head for motorcycles. No doubt there'll be some specialize race bike with in cylinder mounted FI.
    That out of the way. Throttle body is very similar to the carbs. Instead of a vacuum pulling fuel through a venturi like a carb does. Fuel injectors just squirts a measured amount of fuel into the air intake passageway. There is a butterfly valve that regulates air volume just like the carb. Throttle bodies don't have a choke butteryfly valve instead uses higher idle speed for cold starts. There is also required sync of all throttle bodies like the Carb are synced.
    The equivalent to re-jetting a carb is re-mapping a FI. Re-mapping is done by tuner on a dyno measuring Air/Fuel mixture. Can also get aftermarket FI mapping devices like 'power commander'. All very costly compaired to carb adjustments. The FI mapping consists of when it starts to pulse fuel(timing). Also the duration of the fuel pulse (amount of fuel injected).
    Mods like aftermarket exhaust and air box mods. Oftain require adjusting a carb, it's the same with FI.
    Fuel injectors have more sensor inputs. Oxy, Air temperature, Throttle position, rpms, gear including neutral. This information is used by the ECU to find a point on the mapping that has a timing and duration output for the FI. When graphed these maps look like rolling hillside overlayed with a grid form.
    Adjusting FI is very hit a miss done without a dyno. There's maps can be downloaded for some common mod configuration. There's a real difference riders notice after re-mapping, even with stock bikes. Also when a re-map screws up, it's bad. Bike that won't idle or get very bad gas mileage to mention a few. Modding a bike beyond a slip-on pipe nearly allways requires aftermarket FI management devices.

    Heh this is everything at once. Now others can simplify some
    Alan - Green GSX1300R - Former Blurple Zr7sS rider

  5. #4
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    now that as Martin64 has often previously pointed out,
    ....don't blame me for all this technology that's slowly (but surely) being crammed down our throats, I'm just pointing out the obvious.

    And additionally I, too, am very uneducated in the ways of the future fuel systems (that are here now) and I know just enough now to be dangerous.

    Being's as how I have a Harley, I'll tell you what I know.

    1) Notta d@mn thing.

    Actually there are a few systems that work. They have their own Screaming Eagle downloads (Stage 1, Stage 2) and something I still haven't totally grasped yet called SERT (Screaming Eagle something-something...maybe it's Race Technology?)...dunno, don' matter. It's actually something you download into the bikes ECM and then make your own maps and download those. Totally adjustable, you'd need a dyno and I think it's something similar to what Power Commander offers. The Stage 1 and Stage 2 are downloads that are not adjustable. Stage 1 costs about $149 + labor, so it'll come out to about $200 (I priced it yesterday on the way home from work). They also have Stage 1 air cleaner, housing, etc (just so you get the idea that it's not just a download, but the down load is the heart of it). SERT, being adjustable, you set your own peramitters and can go with what ever pipes, a/c, engine displacement, etc. But the word is going around that H-D is going to be pressured by Big Brother (EPA) to not be doing high performance downloads in the future and will eventually be restricted to what they can offer without getting their " _ _ _ in a ringer".

    Now back to what Bronto said. I can't speak for them all but mine is a throttle body type injection. It has all kinds of sensors, bells, whistles and other crap that I don't understand yet and will probably change about the time I do start understanding. But Jon, being familiar with the Chevy Throttle Body Injection, probably has a real good idea of what it's all about (better than me, for sure).
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  6. #5
    Johnny Blue Lightnin'
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    GM has 5 different types of gasoline fuel injection systems (and 3 diesel) that I can think of off the top of my head, not counting the variations of those. They all do the same thing, just the parts and locations are different.
    Jon

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  7. #6
    Supreme Being speedwoble's Avatar
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    I would say that the motorcycle fuel injection(or at least the z1000's) is multiport type instead of throttlebody. I say this because each cylinder has its own injector and the injectors are positioned below the butterfly valves.
    I learned enough to be dangerous by installing an aftermarket fuel injection system on my pickup.
    The basic operation is very simple. The computer looks at Rpm and manifold absolute pressure to determine how loaded the engine is, located the values on the map and squirts in the proper amount of fuel. This assumes the engine is not accelerating, at a constant altitude, temperature, and fuel pressure. Most engines are not at these constants, so the computer has modifiers by which it takes various sensor data and multiples by a percentage to determine the actual fuel going into the engine.
    Example, at 2000 rpm and 50kPa of pressure, it fires the injector for 40 milliseconds. But, if it senses cold incoming air, and opening throttle plates, it may multiply that by 1.1 and actually open the injector for 44 milliseconds.

    GG might find this useful,
    http://www.holley.com/data/TechServi...ech%20Info.pdf

  8. #7
    Maintenance Overlord graeme gould's Avatar
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    A great initial response, h'mmm seems there is a lot of worms in this can.

    So let's keep it specific if you like, let's keep it related to Z1000 and Z750, that doesn't mean other EFI info/experience shouldn't be posted here.

    gg@laemchabangthailand, back on the belt drive computer
    Graeme Gould at Byron Bay the most Easterly part of Australia

  9. #8
    Supreme Being Bronto's Avatar
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    I need to clarify the difference on Fuel Injectors. The Direct injection (DI) the injector is mounted directly on the cylinder head. There'll be a sparkplug and Fuel injector right next to it. The injector pumps gas directly into the cylinder.
    Other type is throttle body mounted injectors. The injector pumps gas into an intake passage before the intake valve.

    Heh this isn't new technology it pre-dates the carburator. I don't know which is better for what. Could be a marketing ploy Does seem when it comes to emission regulations they choose the FI system.
    Last edited by Bronto; 11-24-05 at 01:58 AM.
    Alan - Green GSX1300R - Former Blurple Zr7sS rider

  10. #9
    Maintenance Overlord graeme gould's Avatar
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    [B]Hi Speedwobble,


    There is some great info at www.holley, now I or preferably us can relate that info to the Z1000/750's

    gg@laemchabangthailand, ava good day
    Graeme Gould at Byron Bay the most Easterly part of Australia

  11. #10
    scott james
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    very interesting !!!!! but way to technical for me !!! i am going to another post !!! scott

  12. #11
    Maintenance Overlord graeme gould's Avatar
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    Hey SJ

    This thread is for dummies ......no no gg is not saying you are dummy, we are trying to keep it simple, if you know what I mean. I think the complex part is the computer/controller and everybody accepts these, most are only interested what they do, how they work is the technical bit, transistors and other wizzardry.

    Stay with us SJ

    gg@bangkok, having moved away from the belt drive computer, ava good day
    Graeme Gould at Byron Bay the most Easterly part of Australia

  13. #12
    Maintenance Overlord graeme gould's Avatar
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    gg's going to refer you here the Z1000 service manual for your preview (.....go to the EFE section)

    Here:

    http://sharedmomentsonline.com/z1000...hop_Manual.pdf

    It's gg's intentions to look at the Z1000 EFI system and individual components to see if we can make some sense of all this wizardry.......keep is simple gg


    gg calls for any/all comments as we progress.
    Graeme Gould at Byron Bay the most Easterly part of Australia

  14. #13
    Maintenance Overlord graeme gould's Avatar
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    Whoa gg,

    gg's perused and printed out the 1st 10 pages of the EFI section of the Z1000 service .....way too complicated, who wants to know about the "sub-throttle sensor"? certainly not gg

    So where do we start?

    The common old simple diesel engine has fuel injection system with many of the principles similar to the EFI. The diesel engine has a pump, fuel lines, injectors and some sort of control....the governor. Now gg is suggesting we follow that simple diesel engine arrangement for the EFI system.


    The EFI has:

    *Pump
    *Fuel lines
    *Injectors
    *Some sort of control..electronic controller, h'mmm think about that gg

    That's it gg nice and simple, of course one can make it as complicated as one likes, however if one does have a good base of building blocks, then we expand on that.

    gg will with others contributions try to get a grip on the above.

    Time to have a caffein fix.

    gg better look up the pump info before the class resumes....wake up gg you are dreaming again.


    Why are you doing this gg,.... h'mmm to learn a lot, especially on the Kawa Z engines and maybe forfumers will benefit (or is it benifit)

    gg was once told that "a little knowlege is dangerous", however he was not quick enough with the reply that "ignorance is bliss"

    coffee's getting cold.

    gg@bangkok, working two computers of the electronic variety instead of the V-belt drive ones at Laem Chabang, ava good day
    Graeme Gould at Byron Bay the most Easterly part of Australia

  15. #14
    Supreme Being Bronto's Avatar
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    Z1000 looks the same as the Z750 FI system.
    Sensors
    Water temperature sensor
    Inlet Air pressure sensor
    Inlet Air temperature sensor
    Vehicle Down sensor (Tip over switch)
    Atmospheric pressure sensor
    Subthrottle sensor
    Main throttle sensor

    Computer, relays and displays
    ECU (Electronic Control Unit) "Computer"
    Fuel pump relay
    FI LED dash light
    Turn Signal relay (Weirdly named it is a safety relay with inputs from Clutch, Gear(Neutral) and kickstand switchs.)
    Self-diagnosis terminal (Vehicle code troubleshooting)

    Mechanicals
    Injectors
    Fuel pump
    Fuel pump screen
    Fuel Filter
    Fuel pressure regulator
    Return Fuel check valve


    Personal experience with motorcycle FI systems. Maintenance is making sure fuel filter is cleaned or replaced. Running injector gas treatment once in while.
    More in deepth maintenance is cleaning the Fuel pump filter screen. Possibly a small filter screen on each injector, but don't hold me to it
    You'll know when FI maintenance is required by hard starting and rough idle. Fuel cleaning additives are already in Major brand gas stations. The Independant cheap gas stations, might start using a injector cleaner treament sometimes.
    Alan - Green GSX1300R - Former Blurple Zr7sS rider

  16. #15
    Rising Star biker4kids's Avatar
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    Having a new 636 the whole thing FI comes into play. The dang thing has 8 injectors, sub throttle valves and about 10 different sensor signals the ECU takes into account to determine how much and when to squirt fuel, and when to ignite each spark plug. It's a freakin mess I tell ya!
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